Masallah Dekak
Kurdish politician and lawmaker Omer Ocalan, 38, was born eight years after his famous uncle, Abdullah Ocalan, left Turkey for Syria a year after founding the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK). Kept apart by armed struggle and prison bars, they met for the first time on October 23 when the nephew was assigned by his political party to visit Ocalan in his Imrali Island jail as part of efforts to initiate a new peace process between the state and the armed Kurdish group and end a deadly war that has lasted decades.

“Before Mr Ocalan arrived, I entered the meeting room. The director was also with me. I waited standing for Mr Ocalan. Then he came in. He greeted me, said ‘You've also entered politics, I'm following you.’ He sat down on the chair like that. There was a round table. I was facing him. He had brought his water, his watch was in front of him. He said let's begin,” Omer Ocalan recounted his first ever meeting with his uncle during an interview with Rudaw in Diyarbakir (Amed) on Tuesday.

Omer Ocalan had previously submitted numerous applications to the justice ministry to see the PKK leader, but they were all rejected.

Asked if the meeting was a family one or a political one, the outspoken lawmaker replied, “I can say that even within the family, we don't talk much about family matters.”

Most of their hour and 40 minutes-long conversation centred on politics.

“Of course, he asked about the family, asked about his brother, his sister, some of his friends. He talked about the village, talked about Halfeti, also talked about Riha [Sanliurfa]. He asked about family matters for about ten minutes. Then he extensively analyzed things happening in the Middle East, things happening in Kurdistan, things happening in Turkey.” recounted Omer Ocalan, who is a member of the pro-Kurdish Peoples’ Equality and Democracy Party (DEM Party).

Their discussion touched on the major issues concerning Kurds today - the PKK leader’s stance on the latest developments in northeast Syria (Rojava), calls for the PKK to lay down arms, and unity talks between Kurds in Rojava and the Kurdistan Region.

The following is the full transcript of the translated interview with Omer Ocalan:

Rudaw: A few months ago, you went to Imrali and met your uncle for the first time. How did this meeting come about?

Omer Ocalan: As his family and lawyer, I had made several requests [to visit Ocalan]. I, as a parliamentarian, would occasionally submit applications to the minister of justice to make such a meeting possible. Last time we requested a meeting to be held on October 23. Ten to 15 days before that day, we were informed that we could visit Imrali Island. This was the first meeting [between me and Abdullah]. Two days before the meeting, we were informed [that we could go] and we started making preparations. We traveled from Ankara to Bursa and from Bursa to Imrali Island. On October 23, I met the Kurdish leader for the first time. He is also my uncle. For four years and eight months, no one from the family had gone to Imrali Island. Law is not being implemented on Imrali Island. Turkey's constitution is not being implemented. For Mr Ocalan, the law has been abolished. However, for the first time on October 23 I had a meeting with Mr Ocalan that lasted about one hour and 40-45 minutes.

Was this the first time you saw your uncle?

That's right, I'm 38 years old. I was born in 1987, but Mr Ocalan moved from Pirsus [Suruc] to Kobani in 1979. He stayed outside the country for about 20 years. He also stayed in Rojava [northeast Syria], which is also our homeland. He was arrested in 1999. He has been jailed at Imrali Island for 26 years. This was the first time I saw him. It was also the first time he saw me.

How did you feel? Your feelings and his feelings?

In truth, it was a professional meeting. Before Mr Ocalan arrived, I entered the meeting room. The director was also with me. I waited standing for Mr Ocalan. Then he came in. He greeted me, said ‘You've also entered politics, I'm following you.’ He sat down on the chair like that. There was a round table. I was facing him. He had brought his water, his watch was in front of him. He said let's begin.

Was it a family meeting or a political one?

I can say that even within the family, we don't talk much about family matters. Of course, he asked about the family, asked about his brother, his sister, some of his friends. He talked about the village, talked about Halfeti, also talked about Riha [Sanliurfa]. He asked about family matters for about ten minutes. Then he extensively analyzed things happening in the Middle East, things happening in Kurdistan, things happening in Turkey.

How did Ocalan appear physically? Was he in good shape or had he declined? Because we haven't seen any pictures of him for a long time. The last photo of him was shared with the public ten years ago. If you could bring that picture to mind for us.

He looks very similar to that photo. He was strong, in good shape. He walked in. He spoke at length. Sometimes I would interrupt, ask some things, say some things, but mostly Mr Ocalan spoke. He was strong, both physically and mentally. He had information about and awareness of the Middle East, things happening in the Middle East and the world, things happening in Kurdistan. He had command over all developments.

You didn't share much about this meeting.

I shared many things.

You shared very few things. What you shared was that you spoke for about one hour and 45 minutes.

Around that time.

One hour and 40 minutes. You said that Ocalan said if they lift the isolation and conditions are prepared, I have the power to end the violence and establish a political and legal foundation. Isn't that right?

That's correct.

I assume in one hour and 40 minutes you didn't just talk about this one sentence. What did he tell you?

This statement was a summary. This message indicates the basis of our meeting. There is a war and conflict in Kurdistan, lasting for decades and is ongoing. Mr Ocalan said, ‘I have an initiative and the power to end this war and stop the conflict. I can bring this issue to the legal and political arena. But we discussed many other things and definitely we did not just discuss [what I already mentioned].

For example, what were some things people are curious about that you discussed?

I can share. Actually, there were some speculations about certain things. Our co-chair also talked about Gaza. The Turkish media distorted these words, but Mr Ocalan had said this: if the Kurdish issue is resolved, if the Middle East issue is resolved, the future of the Middle East will become bright. But if the Kurdish and Kurdistan issue isn't resolved and the Middle East issue isn't resolved, now there's one Gaza but it will become 50 Gazas. From Baghdad to Damascus, from Damascus to Mosul, from Mosul to Erbil. Turkey is also in the Middle East. Kurdistan is also in the Middle East. Now there's one Gaza. When there isn't a social solution, one Gaza will become 50 Gazas.

Including Turkey?

Of course, of course.

In one of his meetings, Ocalan says security is as important as freedom. Perhaps you discussed this in your meeting. Is this code?

This was recently discussed in the media.

Did he talk about this with you?

This matter wasn't discussed with us. But other unrelated issues were discussed. Mr Ocalan had said this about the solution. We have said many things but it may not have attracted Rudaw’s attention. He said, ‘When I was captured, I said I'm ready to work for a solution. I said it on the plane too, I said it in 2000 too, and I still say it.’ But some people reversed this, they said Ocalan is saying these things to save himself. But he said in 2024, this issue still exists. This issue should have been resolved in 2000, but unfortunately it still hasn't been resolved. He said interesting things about the Middle East too. He said if we and Turkey don't prepare ourselves for a solution, in the future Syria, Iraq, Iran and many plans of international powers also exist. In these places, there's a possibility that a state might also be declared.

Meaning Kurds will declare a state?

These things were discussed. He didn't mention the Kurdish issue, but it's understood of course, Mr Mashallah. I don't need to explain everything one by one. This could also become the beginning of a big war. Because of this, the foundation for a solution was discussed. We talked on October 23. Three months have passed since this meeting. He was very motivated, energetic, strong, his motivation was very high.

You went to Imrali before everyone else but now Pervin Buldan and Sirri Sureyya Onder go to Imrali for meetings. Why isn't your name part of that delegation?

We visited Mr Ocalan as a family. He is my uncle. We make the visits as a family. We want to meet Mr Ocalan as members of his family. Our colleagues and lawmakers, Mr Sirri Sureyya Onder and Ms Pervin Buldan, have great experience. They have been involved in politics for years. They were also in that delegation in 2013 and 2015. It has been accepted this way. What falls on our shoulders is that we should strengthen the stance of this delegation, we should strengthen Mr Ocalan's side for a solution. There is a need. The state should also revise and correct the language it uses at this point, because trust isn't created this way. On the other side, we are family and our role is something else. We are his family and are somehow involved in this work.

Until now only Selahattin Demirtas has given a name to this process. [Editor’s note: In a statement on January 11, jailed Kurdish politician Selahattin Demirtas welcomed recent efforts for peace between the Turkish state and the PKK, and called it the ‘Democratization, Peace and Brotherhood Process’] Until now no one, neither the state nor the PKK and the DEM Party, has named this process. If you as Omer Ocalan were to name this process, what name would you choose?

Sir, I won't name this process. This is the Middle East. And in the Middle East, Kurdistan's place is different. We don't know how politics will be conducted tomorrow, but Kurds should have many alternatives in hand. Now I also travel among society. In Urfa, in Amed, in Istanbul, I have many exchanges in many cities. Here there is a problem with trust. Because many times there have been failures. Because of this, we can't give it a name. Of course Kurds are excited. They want this issue to reach a peaceful solution somehow, but there's nothing visible yet. There's no clarity. The language the state uses, the language that the state's president uses, that the government and rulers use is, unfortunately, not positive language.

It does not go with the spirit of a peace process?

Everyone must support the process to make it strong. Because now everyone is evaluating on their side, there is no process that brings everyone together. Everyone is unilaterally analyzing, taking precautions - the state, the [PKK] organization, the DEM Party, and the Kurds. To call it a process, much more time is needed.

The state wants Ocalan to call for laying down arms, according to what we have seen in officials’ statements. Ocalan has announced ceasefires several times since 1993. Everyone knows about this. This time in your meeting, did he talk about how the time for armed conflict is over, that time has ended?

I can say clearly that on October 23 we talked for about one hour and 40 minutes. This meeting might have been recorded too. Mr Ocalan didn't talk about weapons. He didn't talk about his movement. He only said I won't say anything. He said whatever I say right now will be misunderstood.

If Ocalan makes a call, do you believe that PKK or Qandil will listen to Ocalan's call?

This is a very important question. Maybe I don't have the answer, but from what I follow, what I follow in the media, many KCK [Kurdistan Community Union, a PKK umbrella organization] officials, many PKK officials have so far supported this process and the meeting with Mr Ocalan. I heard it in the media late yesterday too. Until now I haven't heard anything negative that they've said. But this thing also exists, when you want to get results from something, you need to prepare its foundation. If there's a serious and heartfelt solution, everything will be resolved. People who took up arms 40 or 50 years ago and started armed conflict, did so because of something. As of now, tens of thousands of people have lost their lives on many sides. Kurdish fighters, Turkish state police or their soldiers, civilian people have lost their lives. There is a need to prepare the foundation. With great seriousness, with trust, everyone needs to empty their bag. For these events to never happen again, this is necessary. When this isn't resolved, there is PKK and KCK today but tomorrow something else might emerge. Because of this, a real solution is necessary.

Laying down arms or silencing weapons, both possibilities exist. Will this strengthen or weaken the DEM Party's hand, its politics?

Regarding weapons, I have nothing to say. We are a political party. We are bound by Turkey's constitution but at the same time I know this is the Middle East, this is Kurdistan. I know this thing too. I won't say anything about weapons. Kurds need to have international relations, they need to have diplomacy, they need to strengthen themselves economically, in every way. This is the Middle East, this is Kurdistan. Beyond that, regarding weapons I have nothing to say. I am a politician.

In that meeting did you talk about Rojava or not? Because now Rojava, especially Kobani, is on the agenda of the whole world, not just Kurds.

Of course we talked about Rojava.

What did he say?

Now Rojava is on the agenda of all Kurds. It's on the agenda of all Kurdish parties. I asked this question, I said, my leader now everyone is in Rojava, everyone is talking with each other. He also said, I won't tell Kurds not to talk with anyone. He said Kurds have rights, they have the right to give and take with everyone. They are not the Kurds of a hundred years ago. They have been adorned in some way. They also have power and strength. They will also resist. But before that, many things were said regarding a solution. These things were said about Rojava. According to my analysis, Mr Ocalan is saying the door of diplomacy is open for Kurds.

Does Ocalan have a project for the new phase, for a solution?

In this country, the one who has a paradigm, who has a big model is Mr Ocalan. He says this openly, there's nothing hidden.

Did he share it with you?

How will Kurds live with Arabs, how will they live with Persians, how will they live with Turkey? Its formulation was discussed.

During that meeting?

It was discussed.

What did he say?

He said, when Turkey resolves this issue, it's a model in this country. If this issue isn't resolved, the Turkish state will withdraw to Anatolia and they will live their hell in Anatolia. He said this. What I am saying has been recorded. No more, no less. When this issue is resolved, the door of life opens for everyone, when this issue isn't resolved he said, Turkey will withdraw to Anatolia and live its hell. These things were said.

How do you see the role of the Kurdistan Region in such a process? For Rojava or in general?

Well now the focus is mainly on Rojava. Kurds are not the Kurds of a hundred years ago. Many politicians say that they follow Southern Kurdistan [Kurdistan Region] with sensitivity. The meeting of Mr Masoud Barzani and Mr General Mazloum [Abdi] made us all excited. We value this meeting. When the ENKS [Kurdish National Council, a Rojava political party] delegation met with Mr Masoud Barzani and he advised them, told them things, we value these things... There needs to be a mechanism over the parties. Of course there's KDP [Kurdistan Democratic Party], there's PUK [Patriotic Union of Kurdistan], there is PYD [Democratic Union Party], there's DEM Party, there's PKK which conducts armed struggle. There are many models. There are smaller parties too. There needs to be a mechanism over these parties.

What should this mechanism be called?

Everyone can call the mechanism with different names. You can call it a congress, federal system, confederal system, you can call it anything. Now we support Southern Kurdistan's stance regarding Rojava when they make statements. We value this. This relationship between Rojava and Southern Kurdistan needs to continue. These policies of assimilation and crushing have failed. The Turkish Republic also needs to change this 100-year-old paradigm because its objective was not met. It did not result in a solution. Blood was shed, uprisings were done, but they were responded to with suppression. They still continue it. Turkey needs to change this paradigm.

Final question. As the DEM Party, are you thinking of going to meet with Kurdistan Region's authorities?

It is a necessity at this stage, but I'm not in the DEM Party's General Committee. I continue my work as a parliamentarian, a member of this party. Yesterday, there was a meeting of the General Committee. We will receive the outcomes in the coming days, we are following it. But I see it as necessary. Now for Southern Kurdistan some meetings and visits should be made. Visiting institutions is important but there's a big role for President Masoud Barzani. He needs to play his role too. In this century we can succeed this way. Not just act with party and political approaches. For all interests of Kurdistan, Kurds should have a role. President Ocalan said this in his meeting too. He said in the Middle East those who have energy and potential are Kurds. Others have lost their energy, morale and motivation in these hundred years. Those who can establish a new system in the Middle East are Kurds and they can raise other peoples, other nations with them.[1]